Radical thief idea
Kalist19
Posts: 1199
5/11/2021, 7:56:06 PM
As you may know, I think AR is great and I like to share it with other people. I do a lot of thinking about how to bring in new players, increase enjoyment for current players, and decrease things that either prevent people from logging in or making people quit out.
The thought of thieves crossed my mind recently. No I wasn't robbed and no I didn't rob anyone else. I was just thinking in general about things that prevent people from logging in. I may be just imagining this but I think people tend to log in less if there is a really active thief or thieves at 50 due to the potential of being robbed blind with almost zero chance of killing the thief (in many cases).
Thieves serve a necessary role of being the great equalizer/thorn in the side of the untouchables (e.g. characters hard to kill by traditional methods). I.e. if you can't kill them, rob them!
That being said, the mere thought of being robbed with no recourse may just turn people off of even logging on. That makes me sad and decreases the number of players on and decreases the overall hours-played-time for our great mud.
Proposition:
Remove steal
Lower success chance on pry
Alternative:
Let damage from hunger/thirst wake you up again
I think either change lets them serve their role as equalizers but not to the point where people will avoid logging in because of them. The hunger/thirst change would have the added benefit of giving people a defence against the dark arts (i.e. sleep, insomnia).
I may be way off on this and if everyone says 'no kalist you are crazy', that's ok! I just thought I would see what others thought.
Of course there are more extreme measures you could take if you really hate thieves that much (i.e. play a shadow or thief so you have detect hidden, never leave your guild, never leave your cabal guardian, never leave a forest, don't wear any equipment worth stealing, etc) but most of those would prevent you from playing what/how you actually want to play...
PS I made a halfling thief around a year ago, trained it, leveled it to 50, then let it inactive because of the thought that 'If I succeed with this character, people will avoid logging in' - that is the exact opposite of my overall goal for AR. This is a thought that's been percolating for a while - not a reaction to any specific event or character.
The thought of thieves crossed my mind recently. No I wasn't robbed and no I didn't rob anyone else. I was just thinking in general about things that prevent people from logging in. I may be just imagining this but I think people tend to log in less if there is a really active thief or thieves at 50 due to the potential of being robbed blind with almost zero chance of killing the thief (in many cases).
Thieves serve a necessary role of being the great equalizer/thorn in the side of the untouchables (e.g. characters hard to kill by traditional methods). I.e. if you can't kill them, rob them!
That being said, the mere thought of being robbed with no recourse may just turn people off of even logging on. That makes me sad and decreases the number of players on and decreases the overall hours-played-time for our great mud.
Proposition:
Remove steal
Lower success chance on pry
Alternative:
Let damage from hunger/thirst wake you up again
I think either change lets them serve their role as equalizers but not to the point where people will avoid logging in because of them. The hunger/thirst change would have the added benefit of giving people a defence against the dark arts (i.e. sleep, insomnia).
I may be way off on this and if everyone says 'no kalist you are crazy', that's ok! I just thought I would see what others thought.
Of course there are more extreme measures you could take if you really hate thieves that much (i.e. play a shadow or thief so you have detect hidden, never leave your guild, never leave your cabal guardian, never leave a forest, don't wear any equipment worth stealing, etc) but most of those would prevent you from playing what/how you actually want to play...
PS I made a halfling thief around a year ago, trained it, leveled it to 50, then let it inactive because of the thought that 'If I succeed with this character, people will avoid logging in' - that is the exact opposite of my overall goal for AR. This is a thought that's been percolating for a while - not a reaction to any specific event or character.
jaran
Posts: 496
5/11/2021, 9:01:52 PM
Something tells me Kalist just got pwned by a thief.
Davairus
Posts: 10674
5/11/2021, 9:05:02 PM
what a load of bollocks
Arunore
Posts: 229
5/11/2021, 9:55:17 PM
Having an affinity for thieves, I feel like I must comment on this before I slip back into hibernation.
People are going to quit out when the threat of dying and/or the threat of losing something valuable is evident. That is natural instinct and I feel like nerfing/removing steal or pry would be catastrophic to the class, but I am also biased, right? I'd suggest a rename to something else instead of Thief if you're going to remove their bread 'n butter.
A thief is a nuisance, and if played right, can be the equalizer to the untouchable. In actuality, every class in this game if played right is an equalizer to the untouchable. It doesn't matter.
The person equipping the newbie on winter runs should think twice about gearing him the fuck out, because there are others who aren't as merciful as I use to be when I played thieves. I'd still take what I wanted, but most of the time I wouldn't kill the newbie unless they were a thorn in my side by association of the real target I was trying to get to. Like a duergar warrior Justice hiding in his guild, or a Cabal leader running around in a pack b/c they would all log on at the same time.
I digress. See you all down the road.
People are going to quit out when the threat of dying and/or the threat of losing something valuable is evident. That is natural instinct and I feel like nerfing/removing steal or pry would be catastrophic to the class, but I am also biased, right? I'd suggest a rename to something else instead of Thief if you're going to remove their bread 'n butter.
A thief is a nuisance, and if played right, can be the equalizer to the untouchable. In actuality, every class in this game if played right is an equalizer to the untouchable. It doesn't matter.
The person equipping the newbie on winter runs should think twice about gearing him the fuck out, because there are others who aren't as merciful as I use to be when I played thieves. I'd still take what I wanted, but most of the time I wouldn't kill the newbie unless they were a thorn in my side by association of the real target I was trying to get to. Like a duergar warrior Justice hiding in his guild, or a Cabal leader running around in a pack b/c they would all log on at the same time.
I digress. See you all down the road.
hamsandwich
Posts: 268
5/11/2021, 10:24:56 PM
I have definitely been absolutely pissed off by thieves before. Familiar with the feeling. Never played one myself either, because fuck thieves.
That being said, removing steal entirely definitely sounds like you may as well just remove the class. Not that they don't have other useful skills, but because that is what a thief is, they steal shit. It's annoying as all hell, but if they're going to exist, then they need to have steal.
I do appreciate where you're coming from though Kalist, and think that you have a good goal. So I'll try to throw some ideas into the hat too, because I think all of us, even Dav, with his wonderful and kind response, deep down somewhere below his cold, frozen, rude exterior, also wants more people to play AR.
In my opinion, the most annoying part of thieves, what causes me actual physical pain because of frustration, is that you are almost powerless to do anything to stop them. Once you're blackjacked they're gonna steal/pry your shit and sacrifice it. Or even if they keep it they recall/run/hide and you can't do shit about it.
Often I come up against enemies that are way better than me, and I feel like I can't win. This is because they are better me. With thieves that is not the case. It is the way their class works that prevents me from having any recourse. And I HATE that.
SO. Maybe we can change that? Maybe add a flag to items so when they are stolen they cannot be sacrificed for a certain amount of time? Maybe reduce the success rate of hide after a successful steal/pry? I am not saying that any thief that steals something should be guaranteed to die. But as it stands, any thief with even an ounce of skill can easily steal your shit and disappear forever and you just have to accept it and have absolutely no way to vent your frustration. This is why people always complain on logboard/forum and it inevitably leads to people like jaran insulting you for complaining about the game being not fun.
That being said, removing steal entirely definitely sounds like you may as well just remove the class. Not that they don't have other useful skills, but because that is what a thief is, they steal shit. It's annoying as all hell, but if they're going to exist, then they need to have steal.
I do appreciate where you're coming from though Kalist, and think that you have a good goal. So I'll try to throw some ideas into the hat too, because I think all of us, even Dav, with his wonderful and kind response, deep down somewhere below his cold, frozen, rude exterior, also wants more people to play AR.
In my opinion, the most annoying part of thieves, what causes me actual physical pain because of frustration, is that you are almost powerless to do anything to stop them. Once you're blackjacked they're gonna steal/pry your shit and sacrifice it. Or even if they keep it they recall/run/hide and you can't do shit about it.
Often I come up against enemies that are way better than me, and I feel like I can't win. This is because they are better me. With thieves that is not the case. It is the way their class works that prevents me from having any recourse. And I HATE that.
SO. Maybe we can change that? Maybe add a flag to items so when they are stolen they cannot be sacrificed for a certain amount of time? Maybe reduce the success rate of hide after a successful steal/pry? I am not saying that any thief that steals something should be guaranteed to die. But as it stands, any thief with even an ounce of skill can easily steal your shit and disappear forever and you just have to accept it and have absolutely no way to vent your frustration. This is why people always complain on logboard/forum and it inevitably leads to people like jaran insulting you for complaining about the game being not fun.
Xerties
Posts: 484
5/11/2021, 10:41:08 PM
It's too bad to see your idea being disregarded out-of-hand without any discussion.
To answer your question, I definitely don't think we should remove steal from thieves.
That being said, I agree with a lot of what ham wrote. Getting pwned by a thief is certainly not fun. However, Arunore is right on one count that thieves can be a great equalizer. When certain characters are so incredibly decked out that they're impossible to deal with in conventional terms, sometimes the only way is bl;pry;pry;pry;quaff recall;hide.
One thing that I think should be considered for thieves is a little more RP enforcement. Similar to how Paladins have certain RP expectations, so should thieves. To reference the drama from a few months ago, there's no reason that an uncabaled neutral thief should be invading Knights, then prying and sac'ing their stuff. That makes zero sense, especially the sac'ing.
But I wouldn't say there's no recourse. You could put a price on their head. Make them a big target so then they're afraid to log in.
Then again, there's the question of 'Is this even a problem?' Are people not logging in to avoid thieves running rampant? Are there even any active level 50 thieves of note?
In any case, I appreciate the opportunity for discussion, Kalist!
To answer your question, I definitely don't think we should remove steal from thieves.
That being said, I agree with a lot of what ham wrote. Getting pwned by a thief is certainly not fun. However, Arunore is right on one count that thieves can be a great equalizer. When certain characters are so incredibly decked out that they're impossible to deal with in conventional terms, sometimes the only way is bl;pry;pry;pry;quaff recall;hide.
One thing that I think should be considered for thieves is a little more RP enforcement. Similar to how Paladins have certain RP expectations, so should thieves. To reference the drama from a few months ago, there's no reason that an uncabaled neutral thief should be invading Knights, then prying and sac'ing their stuff. That makes zero sense, especially the sac'ing.
But I wouldn't say there's no recourse. You could put a price on their head. Make them a big target so then they're afraid to log in.
Then again, there's the question of 'Is this even a problem?' Are people not logging in to avoid thieves running rampant? Are there even any active level 50 thieves of note?
In any case, I appreciate the opportunity for discussion, Kalist!
Kalist19
Posts: 1199
5/11/2021, 10:45:52 PM
Thanks for the super thoughtful, thorough and well articulated responses everybody!
Arunore I really appreciate your perspective and approach to responsible robbing.
Ham I think you hit it in the head with the feeling of utter helplessness many classes feel when up against a thief. Knowing they will inevitably land that BJ and rob you blind sucks. Especially when you know it's almost impossible to kill them (again depending on the class).
What if you left steal/pry alone but shortened duration on blackjack? Make them really choose which 1-2 items they want to steal. Right now it's an all-you-can-thief buffet. Or increase lag on steal/pry?
The no-sac items idea is cool but they could still give to priest of darkness or something.
Xert that's a great idea of potentially more RP requirement. That's also a good idea of putting a price on their head either formally (contract) or informally (word of mouth).
If people aren't avoiding logging in due to thieves and I'm way off base here - sorry guys. I guess I looked at it as "a thing that could be a problem and maybe has been in the past". I just want people to play and enjoy AR. If nothing changes I'm at least glad we had a chat about it. :)
Arunore I really appreciate your perspective and approach to responsible robbing.
Ham I think you hit it in the head with the feeling of utter helplessness many classes feel when up against a thief. Knowing they will inevitably land that BJ and rob you blind sucks. Especially when you know it's almost impossible to kill them (again depending on the class).
What if you left steal/pry alone but shortened duration on blackjack? Make them really choose which 1-2 items they want to steal. Right now it's an all-you-can-thief buffet. Or increase lag on steal/pry?
The no-sac items idea is cool but they could still give to priest of darkness or something.
Xert that's a great idea of potentially more RP requirement. That's also a good idea of putting a price on their head either formally (contract) or informally (word of mouth).
If people aren't avoiding logging in due to thieves and I'm way off base here - sorry guys. I guess I looked at it as "a thing that could be a problem and maybe has been in the past". I just want people to play and enjoy AR. If nothing changes I'm at least glad we had a chat about it. :)
Davairus
Posts: 10674
5/12/2021, 12:16:47 AM
Quitting out to avoid PK is horrible roleplaying. Thieves "making people quit out" seriously look at the cajones on this guy posting that. That's up there with Rothak saying he'd be willing to play AR again if he gets his elite back. Thieves are part of the game world, deal with it. Also I'm going to take this opportunity to add if I wanted to watch a buncha self-congratulatory backslapping over cake pk's on the logboard I could just watch Kelly Clarkson judging her team members on the Voice instead. Please make more thieves. In fact, I goddamn love it that this thread happened.
Xenyar
Posts: 690
5/12/2021, 12:39:02 AM
Thieves are thieves. Leave it at that. The core skills on the class will not be changing. Losing items with zero recourse to the thief sucks major major balls. Is what it is. Classes without lag skills and hobble eat it the most. Failed BJ coupled with a nice hobble can do the trick... If you still have your weapons, mwhahahaahaha!!!!!
hamsandwich
Posts: 268
5/12/2021, 12:41:01 AM
It's too bad to see your idea being disregarded out-of-hand without any discussion.
That's what I meant to convey in my post but I have a hard time not being an ass. Idk what it is about this forum/logboard that makes me that way. Sorry that I'm part of the problem most the time.
I like Xerties' post. Stricter RP enforcement on thieves sounds good to me. "I'm an asshole and I deliberately piss everyone off with inflammatory yells and tells and then steal shit and perma-hide cause I'm a neutral halfling thief" is what drives me nuts the most. I don't even have to be the victim for that shit to raise my blood pressure.
Dav I don't even have any idea what your Kelly Clarkson reference is, at all. So maybe you should quit projecting? You simultaneously want to belittle people for getting what you deem "cake pk's" while also having a raging hard on for thieves stealing things with absolutely zero skill involved. Weird.
Xenyar
Posts: 690
5/12/2021, 12:46:40 AM
Hammy is a little high strung on the log boards and I love that about you brother! Seriously.
Kalist19
Posts: 1199
5/12/2021, 1:16:23 AM
Okie doke - this was a bad thought I guess. I'm ok with that.
Like usual I don't understand where you're coming from dav. The cajones on me for saying people have quit out to avoid thieves? You're telling me you've never seen people quit out to avoid thieves before? I find that hard to believe since I have definitely seen it a lot over the years and I would imagine you're on a lot more than me.
I'm not going to make more thieves because I do think that it would be easy to play a nearly invincible thief and that would infuriate people to the point of quitting or avoiding logging in all together. Ergo the post....
Also dav, I'll definitely deal with it. I'm not going to ever quit out or avoid logging on because I'm scared of something. That's not my style. I'd rather fight and die (or get robbed). It's other people I was considering (ie increase the player base and amount of people on).
That's totally fair Xenyar, they've always been a pain in the ass and they always will be. Some classes are better equipped to fight them than others.
I'm totally happy to let this drop. Thanks for the discussion guys!
Like usual I don't understand where you're coming from dav. The cajones on me for saying people have quit out to avoid thieves? You're telling me you've never seen people quit out to avoid thieves before? I find that hard to believe since I have definitely seen it a lot over the years and I would imagine you're on a lot more than me.
I'm not going to make more thieves because I do think that it would be easy to play a nearly invincible thief and that would infuriate people to the point of quitting or avoiding logging in all together. Ergo the post....
Also dav, I'll definitely deal with it. I'm not going to ever quit out or avoid logging on because I'm scared of something. That's not my style. I'd rather fight and die (or get robbed). It's other people I was considering (ie increase the player base and amount of people on).
That's totally fair Xenyar, they've always been a pain in the ass and they always will be. Some classes are better equipped to fight them than others.
I'm totally happy to let this drop. Thanks for the discussion guys!
Davairus
Posts: 10674
5/12/2021, 1:28:45 AM
You are logging off on thieves because you need the gear, which is because the guy who attacks you that isnt a thief has already got loads of gear, who you also are logging out on, and if the tables were turned he would do the same. Do you see the self-destructive nature of problem? You are in a constant arms race caused by a culture of cutting link, trying to nerf the balancing force. In a nutshell, this is hoarding.
Mikoos
Posts: 474
5/12/2021, 1:35:04 AM
It's a slippery slope. People log out because of *, not just thieves. I feel bad for the newb who has to learn fighting decked out necros.
Davairus
Posts: 10674
5/12/2021, 1:42:42 AM
Tell that newb to play a thief!
Kalist19
Posts: 1199
5/12/2021, 1:47:20 AM
Yeah fair dav, just don't log out on anybody ever. I'm definitely happy to oblige.
I guess this is just a fundamental challenge of a PK mud. 20 years ago it was a mark of pride to have people quit out in terror. Now it just causes a twinge of regret to see people quit out.
I guess this is just a fundamental challenge of a PK mud. 20 years ago it was a mark of pride to have people quit out in terror. Now it just causes a twinge of regret to see people quit out.
Davairus
Posts: 10674
5/12/2021, 2:48:36 AM
Ok heres 3 days of AR so you can see for yourself how much deliberate quitting impacts the game. This is pretty typical stuff.
Sat Mar 27 20:39:37 2021 :: Groushtar gained level 50
Sun Mar 28 20:12:59 2021 :: Groushtar has entered the realms.
Sun Mar 28 20:15:12 2021 :: Lumubella has left the realms.
Sun Mar 28 20:23:36 2021 :: Serra has left the realms.
Sun Mar 28 20:23:40 2021 :: Eowug has left the realms.
Sun Mar 28 21:11:10 2021 :: Eowug has entered the realms again.
Sun Mar 28 21:18:43 2021 :: Eowug has left the realms.
Sun Mar 28 21:40:20 2021 :: Lumubella has entered the realms again.
Sun Mar 28 21:47:32 2021 :: Lumubella has left the realms.
Sun Mar 28 23:50:35 2021 :: Eowug has entered the realms again.
Mon Mar 29 00:03:04 2021 :: Eowug killed by Groushtar (too slow pal!)
Tue Mar 30 00:30:49 2021 :: Dogran has entered the realms.
Tue Mar 30 00:39:43 2021 :: Tezguul has entered the realms.
Tue Mar 30 00:37:23 2021 :: Eowug has entered the realms.
Tue Mar 30 00:38:58 2021 :: Lumubella has entered the realms.
Tue Mar 30 00:44:06 2021 :: Lumubella has left the realms.
Tue Mar 30 00:50:53 2021 :: Eowug killed by Dogran
So just to be clear, again, I am not nerfing thieves. Eowug as a thief would've done much better for sure.
Sat Mar 27 20:39:37 2021 :: Groushtar gained level 50
Sun Mar 28 20:12:59 2021 :: Groushtar has entered the realms.
Sun Mar 28 20:15:12 2021 :: Lumubella has left the realms.
Sun Mar 28 20:23:36 2021 :: Serra has left the realms.
Sun Mar 28 20:23:40 2021 :: Eowug has left the realms.
Sun Mar 28 21:11:10 2021 :: Eowug has entered the realms again.
Sun Mar 28 21:18:43 2021 :: Eowug has left the realms.
Sun Mar 28 21:40:20 2021 :: Lumubella has entered the realms again.
Sun Mar 28 21:47:32 2021 :: Lumubella has left the realms.
Sun Mar 28 23:50:35 2021 :: Eowug has entered the realms again.
Mon Mar 29 00:03:04 2021 :: Eowug killed by Groushtar (too slow pal!)
Tue Mar 30 00:30:49 2021 :: Dogran has entered the realms.
Tue Mar 30 00:39:43 2021 :: Tezguul has entered the realms.
Tue Mar 30 00:37:23 2021 :: Eowug has entered the realms.
Tue Mar 30 00:38:58 2021 :: Lumubella has entered the realms.
Tue Mar 30 00:44:06 2021 :: Lumubella has left the realms.
Tue Mar 30 00:50:53 2021 :: Eowug killed by Dogran
So just to be clear, again, I am not nerfing thieves. Eowug as a thief would've done much better for sure.
Xenyar
Posts: 690
5/12/2021, 3:47:08 AM
I'm not sure what I think about you posting that.
Lumubella
Posts: 438
5/12/2021, 3:56:49 AM
My recommendation here would be to make hide work 50% of the time at maximum proficiency. Remove the adrenaline component. Want to stop petty thieves? Roll a shadow and own his ass. Or make your own thief and become robin hood. Looking at the data shown by Dav, looks like Lumubella quits out to avoid..... people killed in fights against her that deleted and Dogran apparently. Data that raises a false flag and doesnt even have anything to do with the discussion regarding thieves here. Looks like the bottom feeders picked on the newbie. Knights deliberately quitting out to avoid fighting legions should be severely punished. And the "deliberate quitting" seems to be the case you're making.
Davairus
Posts: 10674
5/12/2021, 5:50:42 AM
Well, really, put "because reason X" or whatever you like, try to justify it, and you may convince yourself, but it doesn't change that it IS still uncanny looking like ASAP quitting out, and that's a perception of shitty roleplaying for everybody logged in. And doesnt change that newbie need Lumu there for him, Lumu left him high and dry, and the griefers got him. I didnt mean to call out the character/player in particular with these incidents, its literally the culture here. It seems to be an echo chamber here, masking the fact that newbies actually quit the game over our bullshit. They dont share these positive views about this, and they don't stay. We all create our own realities based on perceptions, and I'm describing to you and showing you with the logs what it is that EOWUG was seeing. Think about this - its not me you needed to convince is it? I'm not the guy who said to himself, these guys are all assholes, therefore I'm out.
You know, I'd love to help you all in some way to just cut this crap out. Absolutely would. But remove steal. 50% hide rate. This shit is absolutely embarassing. You have to be kidding me. Please, dont try to justify that by saying thats what makes people quit. It isnt. I've see people full loot other players out of range and then file bugs complaining vulture adrenaline was too long while trying to run and quit. I'm pretty sure people have quit or stayed off to protect gear mostly. I get that players will have no time to fight sometimes, but if I had 5 bucks for evry time I see a cabal character quit when their path was entered, I'd be at least 200 bucks. A thief is just a catalyst for the quitting reason, and makes another thing clear. No death needs to be involved..
If thief prys are THAT brutal, then why wouldnt instead we talk about like, maybe grinding for 4 hours to buy a sack of saves is too brutal, no matter which way you eventually lose that sack. We could put some level 40+ saves gear in the shops with hp. You guys wear evermore gambles on easy pry slots, thats your issue. Nobody ever started a forum post over a pried opal ring. You dry your tears and go get another one.
You know, I'd love to help you all in some way to just cut this crap out. Absolutely would. But remove steal. 50% hide rate. This shit is absolutely embarassing. You have to be kidding me. Please, dont try to justify that by saying thats what makes people quit. It isnt. I've see people full loot other players out of range and then file bugs complaining vulture adrenaline was too long while trying to run and quit. I'm pretty sure people have quit or stayed off to protect gear mostly. I get that players will have no time to fight sometimes, but if I had 5 bucks for evry time I see a cabal character quit when their path was entered, I'd be at least 200 bucks. A thief is just a catalyst for the quitting reason, and makes another thing clear. No death needs to be involved..
If thief prys are THAT brutal, then why wouldnt instead we talk about like, maybe grinding for 4 hours to buy a sack of saves is too brutal, no matter which way you eventually lose that sack. We could put some level 40+ saves gear in the shops with hp. You guys wear evermore gambles on easy pry slots, thats your issue. Nobody ever started a forum post over a pried opal ring. You dry your tears and go get another one.
Kalist19
Posts: 1199
5/12/2021, 12:21:14 PM
Nah, posting this idea would have been embarrassing if it was due to getting robbed recently. I haven't been robbed for a really long time and don't care about my own eq all that much so I'm not embarrassed at all. It was just a bad idea and that's it. Not a malicious or petulant idea.
What I should have done instead though, was post a topic titled "what things can you guys think of that either make people quit out or avoid logging in". Step 1 should have been to have people brainstorm things and then see if we could think of any ways to address those things either through trying to change our culture, modifying our role play, tweaking skills, etc.
Or maybe we would have just come to the consensus that "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and it was a bad idea to try to think of ways to improve player involvement. Or maybe we would identify a bunch of things but have no actual way to fix them. Either way, I don't feel bad about having a discussion with the intent of making the game more fun for people.
What I should have done instead though, was post a topic titled "what things can you guys think of that either make people quit out or avoid logging in". Step 1 should have been to have people brainstorm things and then see if we could think of any ways to address those things either through trying to change our culture, modifying our role play, tweaking skills, etc.
Or maybe we would have just come to the consensus that "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and it was a bad idea to try to think of ways to improve player involvement. Or maybe we would identify a bunch of things but have no actual way to fix them. Either way, I don't feel bad about having a discussion with the intent of making the game more fun for people.
Phostan
Posts: 348
5/12/2021, 1:32:46 PM
As someone who had encounters with Yngfre on a daily basis towards the end of their life span, it was annoying, but understandable. Being able to pry off a piece of gear and remove someone's set bonus was a very powerful tool in my opinion. Torments of Hell, no Torments of Hell, Torments of Hell, no Torments of Hell.
Vevier
Posts: 1631
5/12/2021, 2:55:53 PM
I feel like the point of this thread was not to nerf thieves but to find a way to make being the target of a thief a less frustrating experience. Sure, it may be fun for a thief to pry shit but with the playerbase as low as it is, I think it's valuable to discuss how we can make this a less negative experience for the victims. Right now, its just blackjack, steal your shit, then hide until they can quit and thats no fun. You can't even reply to start a conversation with them, which is doubly frustrating.
To that end, I voted for letting hunger/thirst wake people up again. At least then you have a chance to stop them mid-steal. It gives the victim a single tool to use vs them, especially those classes that don't get faerie fire/faerie fog.
To that end, I voted for letting hunger/thirst wake people up again. At least then you have a chance to stop them mid-steal. It gives the victim a single tool to use vs them, especially those classes that don't get faerie fire/faerie fog.
Xerties
Posts: 484
5/12/2021, 4:33:23 PM
I think Vev hit the nail on the head here. It's not so much about getting blackjacked and pried. It's that there's nothing you can do about it. At least when going up against a necro you can load up on SvM and try to avoid the sleep. Not so with thieves. I guess you can just avoid town though.
Phostan
Posts: 348
5/12/2021, 4:58:38 PM
I think it's valuable to discuss how we can make this a less negative experience for the victims.[quote]
I'd like if we can make being pk'd a less negative experience for the victims as well.
Davairus
Posts: 10674
5/12/2021, 5:54:00 PM
Why do we need to nerf stealth more:
A) faerie fire / fog
B) standing in the park or river
C) cabal pendulum announcing caballed thief logins
D) tavern announcing entry
E) lair guardians
F) lair saying someone walked in
G) 40 seconds of disabled hide after attacking (called "bloody")
H) herbal brews
That's a lot of help for a guy sitting around in full winter eq
If you starve yourself the thief will just time the tick to blackjack you. its plenty of time
A) faerie fire / fog
B) standing in the park or river
C) cabal pendulum announcing caballed thief logins
D) tavern announcing entry
E) lair guardians
F) lair saying someone walked in
G) 40 seconds of disabled hide after attacking (called "bloody")
H) herbal brews
That's a lot of help for a guy sitting around in full winter eq
If you starve yourself the thief will just time the tick to blackjack you. its plenty of time
Olyn
Posts: 3281
5/12/2021, 5:54:45 PM
You could always do drugs. Spice is pretty cheap.
Lumubella
Posts: 438
5/12/2021, 6:13:44 PM
Olyn with the hot take. Drugs are the answer folks.
Xenyar
Posts: 690
5/12/2021, 8:09:18 PM
D.A.R.E
Kornhole
Posts: 399
5/13/2021, 1:07:31 AM
Shit, what was that spice again? Where from? Whats it do? Too many IRL drugs?
tayyah
Posts: 605
5/13/2021, 1:20:33 AM
have lost so much saves gear to thieves, super easy fix, put all sack|close sack|wear sack
done
done
Davairus
Posts: 10674
5/13/2021, 1:39:27 AM
maeva/tayyah our issue is that these guys do not feel sufficiently embarassed about quitting out, epsecially from a bad rp perspective. i know you have seen them login and logout again popping their heads in for 4 hours to see if it safe.. they are emboldened by these sacks being high value (yes you can wear them) and also by the sets being fucked from losing one item. those are excuses but the echo chamber says 'its ok.. its ok' and literally that has cost the game new players so i think its time to think of a solution for this problem
Vevier
Posts: 1631
5/13/2021, 1:47:24 PM
I have done some thinking and the thing that annoys me the most about thieves is not being able to reply. So the asshole steals your shit and mocks you and hides and you literally can't even complain.
Please reinstate replying to hidden so we can rp.
Please reinstate replying to hidden so we can rp.
Olyn
Posts: 3281
5/13/2021, 3:05:34 PM
@Kornhole - You can find the spice at the storefront near the thief guild in Seringale.
tayyah
Posts: 605
5/13/2021, 6:07:59 PM
sometimes these complaints are warranted (though, I disagree with almost all of them lol) But almost all of them, I look at them and think, this is what makes AR special. You guys keep putting nerf foam on everything and pretty soon we WILL be playing hell kitty island adventure
Davairus
Posts: 10674
5/13/2021, 6:46:27 PM
[quote="Vevier"] have done some thinking and the thing that annoys me the most about thieves is not being able to reply. So the asshole steals your shit and mocks you and hides and you literally can't even complain.
Please reinstate replying to hidden so we can rp.[/quote]
I found this was changed on Dec 5 2014 - at the time I was just building the webclient. I literally can't find any trace of anybody proposing this idea. I'm happy to undo that.
Please reinstate replying to hidden so we can rp.[/quote]
I found this was changed on Dec 5 2014 - at the time I was just building the webclient. I literally can't find any trace of anybody proposing this idea. I'm happy to undo that.