Legion and Demons and More

I wanted to start a discussion among the player-base about legion. Some people thrive there, and other do not, and I have considered change extensively. Some people like what we have done recently and some people stay away from Legion completely as a result, yet people still play Evils.

What do you like about Legion, and what don't you like?

What would you like to see different?

What cool ideas do you have for Legion.

What would it take to make you consider playing a Legion, after all we need villains.

I do not have an issue with Legion per say, it is more that I do not fit in with them. On account that I cannot PK very well like our other vets. So I tend to steer clear of being Legion because of that, if I was not worried about being killed as Legion and then probably getting dropped from Legion because I sucked then fuck it I would not mind trying. Cause lets be honest Legion is supposed to be the ones that log on and all in range are pretty much a target. You know the whole you are either with us or against us kinda thing. Unless I am wrong cause I know they have done alot of changes.

New player here (Going on 3-4 months, I think?). I'm probably not your target audience, but I've notice that there are a lot of people in my skill range and even a few players newer than myself.

I like playing neutrals and evils because I don't like being restricted as a good align. It's more fun. That being said, I'm nowhere near the pk skill level that one would expect from a legion and I would pretty much just be a punching bag for everyone.

Goals, though. I think it would be fun once I learn a few things and get better. If you're going to be the evil target that everyone wants to kill, there's a skill level required to survive and be competitive and, frankly, you guys are freaks. I'm working my ass off, though, trying to play catch-up - it's just a LOT.

So the first two responses I hear say that you don't think you are good enough yet, or if you join you will die all the time and get punished. That is a misconception, in days past Legion was a place for the best of the best and failure was punished heavily. That's not how I run the show. I take an active chaos is best approach, and Legion is the only cabal where it's acceptable to stretch cabal guidelines within your rp. I have literally told the last 5-10 people who have joined Legion and since then deleted, that I didn't care who died as long as someone did, and that I was just as happy with their death as I was with them killing their opponent.

Being concerned about pk skills and not knowing enough, legion is the type of place that is best for you, because it will force you to fight, force you to get better etc. I want people to play, and have fun, and the only way to get better at PK is to fight in situations where not everything is stacked in your favor. I learned to PK by joining cabal after cabal, and my first Legion was certainly a failure that deleted after 30 or so deaths.

Anyway, that is great feedback and I hope this makes you feel better about it. What I am looking for is things like that yes, so I can add clarity, but I am also looking for lore/power/code change ideas to make people feel better about being the bad guy. One of my best Legions deleted because he didn't like the demon angle, as it conflicted with his religion. That's fine, that's feedback that is important, because one thing that is super flexible is how you rp the mechanics within Legion. Everyone does it differently, and I don't look at it the way everyone else does. Still, I want people to be comfortable and have fun, not rule over an empty cabal. Keep it coming.

I am not saying what is going to get you more Legions but what I can say is, that cabal is the epitome of "churn risk". that used to not matter because it was revolving door, new people would join anyway as people got pissed off and flounced out of legion. If your identified issue is now you need applications then that signals maybe its time to address churn as well.

When we talked a few months ago I gave you the framework for a new pact of darkness which I think is perfect for their RP and could stay that way. I would say restyling the cabal is always nice, get Legion some buzz. but this cabal for me as far as I can tell, it has always been high flight risk. everyone who joins Legion is always jonesing to delete after like 4 months max. So another question is like, how many Legions have deleted or just stopped? What is causing that? You have had some of the best players joining Legion and they just Keeper re-roll or whatever they do. What about if you have a "black ledger" where if you delete a Legion you have to log your reason, like an exit interview from a corporation

>
delete <password>
delete sick of this crap, Dogran sucks

Result stored in black ledger and leader can read it

Maybe you could put other stuff in the black ledger, bring back the vendetta command (that was Legions "flag" right? someone kills you, vendetta them) and log that in the black ledger.
It could be like the valour most wanted thing except that instead of logging criminals youre just logging grievances

I haven't done Legion much because I can't handle the negative blowback of being successfully evil. Also the one cabal rule prevents me from doing it more.

Is the one cabal per person limit a deal breaker for anyone else? I would consider changing it to just cant have a knight and a legion.

not a deal breaker to me, only having one just means that I would have to make sure I have no others so i could do a Legion

Speaking as somebody here with some relatively limited experience in the cabal:


What do you like about Legion, and what don't you like? : mechanically speaking here for the moment: some of the powers are top-notch and reward the strength of the individual. I like that (I prefer the ones I am aware of over what Justice and the Warlords have). The three sects - not so sure about as I've been in one. Only being able to worship Dogran - biggest downside to me. It makes it fairly easy to guess who might be applying to Legion later, and rules out Darkhan as a possibility. I suppose that's also a plus side for me if I want independent characters because I can fight both Knights and Legion and have gift-wrapped IC excuses to be fighting (Militha treated Legions as heretics because she felt Darkhan was the true Dark Lord and Dogran was just an imposter). Culturally speaking, the tendency for people to gank turns me off (but that is not a deciding factor because if I play one, I can always aim to display individual strength and not take part in ganks as a personal choice) and poor IC development of the vessel concept. I tend to view the vessel concept as being like the Donjon card from the deck of many things in D&D: the body continues to function, but the soul has been trapped elsewhere (and the demon has full active control). Having something more like Stephenie Meyer "The Host" would be cool (though that would have to be RPed I guess). Or at least having a stronger RP basis for vessel than "new Legion protection/NAP).

What would you like to see different? From the above, the main thing would be to expand religion options. I'm not sure if I'm the only one who has said that but I haven't seen anyone speak up about it. And as I said above, better development of the vessel thing (particularly if it becomes something which isn't forced or offered like protection).

What cool ideas do you have for Legion. None I'm afraid.

What would it take to make you consider playing a Legion, after all we need villains. I'm afraid I'm not up for it at the moment due to potential conflicts of interest.

I realize I didn't provide much, but take this feedback in the manner it is intended: to give you my opinions since you asked for my opinion indirectly.

That is a good point actually. I would guess the original "dark lord" was probably Kallomar as he built the vanilla DK class. Then looks like Rodyn might've been a legion imm from the helpfiles and history. I'm not even sure. then you had later Zanzabar who went away, Darkhan who went away, Dositheus, Resatimm, Olyn, me, Burzuk (not sure anyone even remembers that), Nycticora , Thorgoth, Dogran, thats a lot of different "dark lords" and I'm sure I'm forgetting somebody important. It changed a lot.

Instead of having 1 dark lord, have the power of Kallomar provide the mantle of the dark lord so that different imms have held the mantle and moved on from it for one reason or another, the dark lord is then whoever holds the mantle.

You have the sins and enough dark lords to cover them all, players could pick the one they want to dedicate to.Just put statues of every former Dark Lord in the cabal, like the sith have those big statues, an underling would pick their favorite one to select their sect

e.g. (no offence intended btw incase anyone of these guys is lurking, its just mud characters)

Hall of Dread
Contains:
the statue of darkhan - wrath
dositheus - sloth
resatimm - gluttony
olyn - avarice
burzuk - lust
nycticora - vanity
thorgoth - envy

Obviously there is much more detail could be written and they could represent combinations, but it keeps it easy for you. The important thing see is it giving the legion player a north star for their RP instead of just trivialy picking your sin to get the demonform buff you want. They become a vessel themselves for that dark lord. That also give you a way to reskin demon form as instead just a borrowed power.

Then as the CURRENT dark lord, you can then have RP with players who want to worship an old dark lord. make them do things to prove their path is current since they havent chosen yours. you could come at it from the angle that the football has been passed around and you alone have the strength to wield it, or you could be a cursed gatekeeper role, at a minimum you can immediately assign the task they must do to be able to choose the statue.

Something really important here, Legion is super laid back, and I have never 100 percent stuck to the Dogran only rule, so expect changes to how that reads. I have always stuck to ifnwe share an element its ok, so trickery or shadow is fine. Can definitely expand that for the sins stuff, really like that.

I brought up my issues with Vessels when I had Kryton. Helpfile says if you want to become a vessel you give up a portion of your soul. Essentially you are now a demon. The problem is, nobody is RP'ing as a demon after being a vessel. Most people don't want to change their entire RP to become a demon, just so they are safe from the big bad legions killing them. This is why I think purchasing protection is really the better option.

I really like the demonform idea btw.

The sects have their upside and downside. Getting forced into one based on your class essentially, gives you no choice. So you get forced/stuck with some decent powers, but miss out on some very useful powers at the same time. Cut the sects and the riff-raff powers. Make them remaining available for all Legion members to obtain by keep them rank based...The higher rank you get, the more powers you get etc.

I believe many people don't want to join legion because they want to pick and choose their PK targets. Many players stay away from the top-tier fights, and try to just pick up easier kills in the bottom to mid-range of the pk charts. If you are in legion, there is no being picky. You impose your will on everybody through bloodshed. The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to believe this is one of the biggest driving factor to why they aren't applying to Legion. And because of that fact, there's only about 5ish players that play legion regularly.

I don't like the whole one cabal rule - never did. Just makes me have a buncha trashy alt characters with no affiliations.

Legion has always been the pinnacle cabal for Pkers. The Forsaken is suppose to be the best pker in the realms. That carries alot of weight and also trying to uphold that reputation. It's usually a vet that has that role, and they get discouraged or feel almost ashamed if they get (eventually always do) dunked, or don't have that uber pk ratio to match the role. Also feels like there is no downtime being a legion - you're always pking, or "subjecting" people - which puts off alot of newer players from joining this cabal traditionally.

We definitely had not top Pkers become Legions and have really excelled both in PK/RP and otherwise with it. The character Darzavius comes to mind - not the most ultimate pker, but definitely killed and held his own. Excelled in the role, was active, didn't care about dieing and picked himself up after every fight. He became exalted for being in the role. I think we need to encourage this more, to not just be the ultimate Pker there all the time.

If you got rid of the one cabal rule, I'd be willing to try my hand in Legion. I'm certainly not going to be one of your top Pkers, but I can do my best to play an evil role and be aggressive out there.

I dunno maybe you should just turn on self-induct. It can be tweaked so its still checking one cabal per person, one use per quarter. If an imm wants to manually override it while its being blocked, whatever.

I think Vessel rp might interest players more if there were a modest coded benefit (certainly nothing on par with a cabal power, but some kind of minor perk). It may be difficult to convince players to eschew their established RP for a demonic-possession storyline otherwise.

So let me know if I missed anything, so far list of complaints and or wishes for changes are as follows.

1. No Cabal Limit
2. Vessel has no benefit and poor understanding, maybe find better benefit and better understanding.
3. Demons have religious connotations and need to be looked at.
4. Thought cabal was for vets only, needs better clarification in helpfiles.
5. Restyle cabal for new buzz
6. Black Ledger
7. Bring back some form of Vendetta/allow internal use of it as well.
8. Clarification of what must serve Dogran actually means IE Shadow or Trickery Element.
9. Expand sins to be deity options instead.
10. Possible mention of cutting sects and combining powers (Probably not doing this)
11. Provide clarity on targets and friends of cabal members so you don't have to PK your friend if you don't want to provided you aren't friends with a Knight or some such.


Did I miss anything or anything anyone else wants to add?

Alright, with no responses, I am going to go ahead and start laying the groundwork with Dav to see what we will be changing and how, and when it can be completed. Expect new fun stuff soon.

I think Dav mentioned a self-induct method?

We had auto induct before, but its not really needed. I am active enough to get it unless we just play opposite hours, and even then I could arrange to be here during the right time. If you guys want it, it would be simple to change it to make it fit and add it back.

I think auto-induct can be considered. I see the reasonings for Justice not being for auto-induct but having the auto-induct option can help drive activity and streamlining for the reputable mudders.

Looking forward to the new legion stuff! I've already started preparing, in hopes!

Late to chime in here but I wanted to share my perspective. While there are elements I really like (demonform concept is really cool), there are several hurdles that make the experience feel more limiting than rewarding for me.

RP Scope & Player Agency
I agree with the points already raised about the forced worship of Dogran and the vessel system. Being tethered to a specific cult leader or forced to give up a character's soul feels very narrow. It drastically changes a character's trajectory in a way that can feel "locked in," rather than allowing for organic RP development.

The Low Rank Experience
As a lower level inductee, the economy felt challenging. Defender potions are pricey and without an efficient way to build up Legion skulls I found myself hesitant to use what few resources I had.

Forced Defense / The Summons Issue
This is my biggest turnoff. Being forced to drop everything to defend the cabal, regardless of what I'm doing, is quite frustrating. If I'm deep in Winter and have to recall to defend, the loss of progress and missed opportunity to grab that bis gear feels like a huge penalty. It feels less like a choice and more like being summoned at someone else's whim.

The Elite Barrier
Right now, Legion feels a bit thin on narrative. It often comes across as a justification for mass PK, which is intimidating for those of us who aren't elite killers. I'd love to see more storylines and events that involve Legion and RP that goes beyond not breaking character.

Refining the System
Given the current state of the pbase I think there is opportunity here to refine the cabal system (not just Legion) and the expectations that come with it. Is the current cabal defense model really a good fit for a smaller player population? When the world is less crowded, being forced into a fight whenever someone wants to poke the cabal feels less like a mechanic and more like a disruption to what I want to do.

Suggestion: consider changing the forced defense policy so it only applies to senior members. This it would allow newer players to grow and enjoy the RP without the constant frustration of being yanked out of their own adventures.

Most cabals have their own conducts that make ranking to pinnacle a priority for junior members and also allow them to not be heavily participate in cabal defense if they are not 50.

Good thoughts, but I think part of all the extra perks from a cabal - you have to be forced to be put in situations to defend your benefits. Cabal raiding is really not what it use to be - 1v1, this barely happens and if it happens the chance of the raider actually taking your item is slim. You have plenty of time to return to your cabal as they slowly claw away at all the different guardians to get to the item - if they can even do that. People think if your door is knocked on, you have to instantly return. This is note the case - the only priority in cabal defense is to stop your enemy from taking your item. That is up to interpretation.

I agree though, having more RPing and welcoming for new players is good for Legion

so as for defenders, gold translates directly into cabal currency at a 100/1 rate, I believe. Gold is extremely easy to get. Just saw someone make 150k on an auction, seen people run face first into trees for plenty of gold. Golems for ores, Tasks, Turn Undead, selling to shopkeepers. Just deposit the gold and withdraw your cabal currency.

So please don't take offense to this but I think the approach here might be counter productive? This propose of this whole thread is "why don't more people join Legion?". If sometimes comes in with their experience the vets, let alone two immortal, really shouldn't say "nah it's fine". That encourages people to not speak. Your words have weight. You're immortals. What he said is telling you he didn't know it's fine in that way or he found it insufficient for the problem. And that guy is an emissary. You should value his experiential feedback in a thread explicitly requesting his feedback. I can say that with certainty because I'm coming off my first cabal character and I had no idea I could do those things. I consider myself an avid help file reader. Nothing said that, nobody told me that, if it's written somewhere no breadcrumbs led me to it

Cabals are shrouded in secrecy by the old guard and I cannot for the life of me understand why. It's not exotic and fun to explore. It's a barrier to entry. Even when you join you're at the mercy of whichever other vet happens to be around right now who feels like sharing.

I've never joined Legion for 3 reasons and 3 reasons only
1) cabal defense is intimidating. I can't pursue my own goals when I want without being pulled into something else
2) perception that evil cabal means less mercy. More penalty for losing, more time invested in getting barley ready again. It doesn't matter if that's not true because there are mechanisms I don't know about that help. I don't know about them. I don't join.
3) RP construct felt narrow and restrictive. Demon stuff was very interesting but I was often invested in a character that just flat wouldn't do that
4) many legion members, not all, didn't seem to care about the RP construct. They didn't commit to the bit. I was directly told to do more than just sell my soul to get something from them when the whole trope of selling your soul is you get something for your soul. They acted like I was trying to take advantage of them instead me trying to engage with them on their schtick by being seduced by the offer. That was a pretty big turn off to me. It makes me feel like I can't get what I'm looking for here. I don't care what the schtick is. I think evil is critical to a healthy fantasy world dynamic. But you have to commit. When I come meet you on your terms you have to accept the offer and see where it goes. That's the first rule of improv. I'm already meeting you. Now it's your turn.

... I listed four reasons... Well god damn it...

Well I dont think you have to be worried abut just because people are imms means you can't say your 2c. I hope I havent ever been one to pull rank on people like that.

I like my owndark vessels idea, I think it would be cool if the dark lord of Resatimm (gluttony) would be like "either be a vessel to hold my power or i'll just kill you", I just want to make it clear I did not leave out the important point that the Legion must join willingly and not made to feel small when they make these picks.

A Legion who went "sloth" is not a Legion that makes any sense to be mass pk'ing, it makes sense for a shadow who is down to just sit around watching for ages then try to get an assassinate without doing much work. That would be an easy pick for a newbie.

I cannot remember if I posted it, I had another idea so I'll just put it in again, have something like stomp where you can brand someone after you've killed them. Kinda like a tattoo . something that just last a long time to show who kicked your teeth in. That would be a sort of "humiliation" that helps someone playing evil to get their rocks off without resorting to multikilling to cause con loss. I mean this is probably the whole reason why we have a "failed assassin" tatt.

I definitely think that idea works. It keeps ties to what's there but makes it far more flexible. Having to worship Dogran was restrictive but the full soul replacement was by far the most restrictive element. Notable legion members were playing around with the concept in interesting ways but it was a much more rigid starting point for the interpretation. There are just so many vectors for evil. And evil is the straw that stirs the drink in fantasy. The more representative of it you have the more neutrals and goods can play off it on interesting ways. I stand by what I said. Any Legion RP construct works as long as players commit and accept the offer from those interacting with them.

I think my biggest takeaway is this is might be a PR problem. If the defend rules aren't as hard and fast as players think and there's a resource funnel to help reequip just get that message out loud. I feel like people get shamed for not defending or taking all fights on the forums and logs. If that isn't the desired cultural it has to come from the top. Defend the spies and assassins and evil politicians. Tell people they are following orders and doing it right when others yell at them for doing it wrong.

I'm late to this party, but I just read the whole thread. It seems everyone agrees that things need to change in some fashion. I liked Dav's ideas about mortal sins; they fit well. Most of Dogran's list of points sounds really good to specifically 2, 4, 5, 6?, 8, 9, and 11. No idea what black ledger is, but sounds cool.
There's my two cents.

So the black ledger would be used to to log certain things, e.g. grievances, into. Usually, I imagine, a delete reason. I liked the specific way Nycticora deleted, its like he left an RP curse on the ford. I think a very interesting mechanic could be done with the Legion deletes like that. Log that. Another thing it could log would be tainted sacrifices. The idea being to fill the ledger with pages that give the Legion a buff of some sort. I also like the cultists theme of Legion, so that could mean you (as a cabal) work together to fill that ledger up, then once its filled, you can burn it to cause a total eclipse that makes it impossible to see when the Legions are online for the next 24 hrs or something. The officlal Legion gankathon. Anyway, maybe not the right idea, but somethin glike that for the black ledger.

If you do the Black Ledger it would be really cool if recording "secrets" also counted towards the end goal. Whether it's a secret about a character or a protected backstory or a detail from an Avenar event. Obviously not all Legion members would try to record secrets but having carve out for cultists caring about subversion and giving Legion a carrot for engaging with players and events in a manner other than death would be really cool. And then that method also leads to more death.

There is something inherently appealing to me about the idea that while the Consortium is the center on knowledge in Serin, Legion might hold a greater repository of secret knowledge.